Сложные эфиры в синтетических смазках. Вопросы к TomNJ

[Ё}I{ИК 399 560]

На ваши вопросы ответит Thomas Schafer.

 

 
38 лет работы в корпорации Hatco (в настоящее время это подразделение Chemtura/Lanxess). Последние 16 лет в Hatco занимал должность вице-президента по продажам и маркетингу в области синтетических смазочных материалов. Руководил исследованиями и разработками продуктов и усовершенствованием процессов, а также координировал производство и продажи с совместными предприятиями в Германии и Бразилии. Лично отвечал за коммерческую и военную авиационную продукцию в течение двадцати лет.
 
Tom американец и не знает русский язык, поэтому при формулировании вопросов, прошу по возможности использовать английский язык. Вы же можете воспользоваться Гугл-переводчиком (Вас много, а Томас у нас такой один, Sae20 c русскими корнями).
 
Вопросы задавайте любые, которые касаются именно синтетических масел и смазок.
Прошу учитывать временной лаг, личную жизнь человека и просто проявляйте уважение в любом общении.

Скрытый текст

 

Thomas Schafer will answer your questions.

Retired after 38 years at Hatco Corporation, a manufacturer and global leader in synthetic esters and synthetic lubricants (now a division of Chemtura/Lanxess). For the last 16 years at Hatco served as Vice President of Sales & Marketing, with global responsibilities in synthetic lubricants. He led product research and development and process improvement, and coordinated production and sales with joint ventures in Germany and Brazil. He was personally responsible for commercial and military aviation products for twenty years.
 
Tom does not know Russian, so when formulating questions, I ask you to use English if possible. You can use the Google translator (there are many of you, and Thomas is the only one with us, Sae20 with Russian roots).
 
Ask any questions that relate specifically to synthetic oils and greases.
Please take into account the time lag, the personal life of a person and just show respect in any communication.

 

 

Из-за чего происходит быстрое срабатывание TBN в маслах с эстерами

[TomNJ 462]

Well that picture was taken some 16 years ago so my hair is a little more gray.   I use a PC and so far Google / Chrome has done a pretty good job of translating, at least enough for me to generally understand, but misunderstandings are certainly possible. Please do not take offense if the translation misses the mark.

 

Also please understand that I am not a mechanical engineer.  It has been many years since I worked on car engines and am not up to date on that technology.  Most of my experience is with synthetic lubricants, especially esters.

Изменено 11 апреля 2020 пользователем TomNJ

[bratok1981 71]

TomNJ Hello. there are so-called refrigeration oils. They work in compressors of refrigeration units. POE the question is - do these oils contain any additives? Or is it a pure base oil?

[TomNJ 462]

8 minutes ago, bratok1981 said:

TomNJ  Hello. there are so-called refrigeration oils. They work in compressors of refrigeration units. POE the question is - do these oils contain any additives? Or is it a pure base oil?

 

Yes and yes.  Some refrigeration oils are just pure POEs, and some contain additives.  Those that do contain additives usually have very small amounts, mostly anti-oxidants and corrosion inhibitors, and sometimes some anti-wear.

 

POEs entered the refrigeration market after the Montreal Protocol in 1987 because the old CFC refrigerants had to change to HFC chemistry due to the effect of the CFC gases on the ozone layer.  The old mineral oil lubricants used with the old CFCs were not miscible with the new HFC refrigerants, and so esters and PAGs entered the market as new lubricants for the new refrigerants.  Along with system design modifications, this was a lot of change for the compressor manufacturers and it worried them, especially since their products were expected to remain in service for decades.  In the past, field failures cost them a lot of money.  Most of the old mineral oils did not contain additives, and so some compressor manufacturers did not want to introduce yet another change and wanted only esters with no additives.  Others accepted additives but wanted to minimize them.

[bratok1981 71]

TomNJ oil FUCHS RENISO TRITON are you familiar with this oil?

BITZER  BECOOL SUNISO SL Do these oils have EP additives? Can POE be used to improve engine oil properties? 5-10% Polar properties for example.

Изменено 11 апреля 2020 пользователем bratok1981

[TomNJ 462]

I know of these products but do not know the formulations.  Their Data Sheets and SDSs may provide some clues if you have them.

[Lumina 458]

TomNJ Greetings! Is there any benefit from adding POE to engine oil? Purpose: to clean the engine of deposits, including rings.

[torcon 80 597]

У меня плохой английский, а гугл переводчик переведет с русского неправильно. Кто понимает? Спросите Тома.

 

"Том, на протяжении многих лет, мы замечаем по анализам отработанных масел UOA, что эстеры в масле способствуют быстрому падению щелочного числа TBN. Нежели чем у масел без эстеров. Это правда? Почему это происходит? Ведь современные эстеры в маслах, имеют нулевое (или почти нуль) кислотное число TAN"

[TomNJ 462]

1 hour ago, Lumina said:

TomNJ Greetings! Is there any benefit from adding POE to engine oil? Purpose: to clean the engine of deposits, including rings.

 

If you mean adding a pure or nearly pure POE, such as a jet engine oil or refrigeration oil, there may be some benefit but also some risk since you are diluting the additives in your motor oil, and some esters can soften seals.  There are many different kinds of POE and some are better than others.  If you keep the amount to 10% or less of pure POE the risk is very small, but the cleaning effect will not be great.  I would only do so if you have reason to believe that your engine is dirty and it is affecting performance.  Another way to do this is to add a quart of Redline oil which they claim has a high POE content.  At least this is safe and would not dilute the additives in your oil.

[Ё}I{ИК 399 560]

4 минуты назад, TomNJ сказал:

Another way to do this is to add a quart of Redline oil which they claim has a high POE content.  At least this is safe and would not dilute the additives in your oil.

In Redline oil, it is POE, and not other esters? You could give a description, a formula?

[TomNJ 462]

43 minutes ago, torcon said:

I have bad English, and Google translator will translate from Russian incorrectly. Who understands? Ask Tom.

 

“Tom, over the years, we have noticed from analyzes of spent UOA oils that esters in oil contribute to a rapid drop in the alkaline number of TBN . Rather than oils without esters. Is this true? Why is this happening? After all, modern esters in oils have zero ( or almost zero) TAN acid number "

 

Esters are made by reacting alcohols with acids, which creates ester and water.  The reaction is reversible, so reacting water with ester creates alcohol and acid.  This is not a problem in most applications because the reverse reaction is very slow and difficult, and esters are designed to be used in high temperatures where there is little or no water.  Car engines, however, may have a wet environment due to water in the blow-by and condensation, especially when driven in short trips or stop-and-go traffic. Over time the ester may slowly break down, the any acids released may neutralize the alkaline additives and reduce the TBN.  This may also show up as an increase in copper in the used oil.  Although these effects may be measurable, they generally do not affect the performance of the oil.  The first synthetic motor oils of the early 1970s were based on 100% ester base oils and performed very well.

[TomNJ 462]

7 minutes ago, Ё}I{ИК said:

In Redline oil, it is POE, and not other esters? You could give a description, a formula?

 

Many years ago I sold POEs to Redline when they first started.  They have changed ownership and I do not know what they are using in their oils today.  I believe their literature still claims that they use POEs, but I do not know what kind or how much.  If you have a gas chromatogram of a Redline oil I should be able to see the ester and perhaps identify it.

[Ё}I{ИК 399 560]

4 минуты назад, TomNJ сказал:

If you have a gas chromatogram of a Redline oil I should be able to see the ester and perhaps identify it.

Hmm ... I definitely don't. Can you comment on this?

This is oil RedLine Professional-Series 5W-20

 

[Pavel_NSK 9 500]

Ё}I{ИК RedLine Professional-Series 5W-20 - this is a bad example.

Only High Performance, Euro-series, Powersports and Motorcycle Oil contain a lot of esters.

Red Line 5W-40 (High Performance)

Or Red Line 10W-40 Motorcycle Oil

Red Line 20W-50 Motorcycle Oil

 

 

Red Line Professional-серия 5W-20 - это плохой пример.

Только High Performance, Euro-series, Powersports и Motorcycle Oil содержат много сложных эфиров.

 

[TomNJ 462]

I generally do not rely on FTIR for determining oil composition.  While it can be useful for some compounds, it is not specific enough for esters.  It measures absorbance from carbonyl groups (C=O) which esters contain. but so do other ingredients and additives.  Even if we knew the C=O absorbance was due entirely to an ester base oil, we do not know which ester.  There are many different POEs used in PCMOs and they vary from two to eight or more carbonyl containing ester linkages in the molecules, so their absorbance varies by type and therefore cannot measure the concentration with any accuracy.  If we know exactly which esters are in the formulation then FTIR becomes more useful, but that is the problem - we usually do not know which ester is in the formulation.

 

I much prefer gas chromatography which is capable of identifying the ester and measuring the percentage.  It also sees other base oils, including mineral oils, PAOs, and alkylated naphthalenes.  Interpretation of the chromatograms requires experience, but when mastered it is a powerful tool in understanding the base oil mix in lubricants.  Our labs had 16 GCs and we used them extensively in analyzing competitive products and for quality control.